You are currently viewing Corporate Governance Women Directors Board Bench Entrepreneur Nancy May Show 044

Corporate Governance Women Directors Board Bench Entrepreneur Nancy May Show 044

The post Corporate Governance Women Directors Board Bench Entrepreneur Nancy May Show 044 was first published on mitchellchadrow.com

0:00you’re listening to the listen up show
0:01darn up entrepreneur podcast I’m
0:03Mitchell Chad Rowe your host today we’re
0:05here with bored bench company’s
0:08entrepreneur Nancy may show zero four
0:12four four two rules to being a great
0:14woman and the first rule is you have to
0:16offer help yourself I don’t care what
0:18your ask is or what it’s about but it
0:19has to be for yourself and nobody else
0:21it’s your time to be selfish and because
0:23women are not really good at asking for
0:24help and and then the other rule is is
0:26which we do extremely well is that you
0:28open your resource in your rolodex to
0:30people in that particular room and

0:32because you try their trusted group of
0:34individuals and they do friends it’s
0:39your business it’s your family if you’re
0:41like let’s get started what is board
0:44venj companies we are a corporate
0:47governance operation or company that
0:49works with public and private companies
0:51we have two sides of the business that
0:53we work with the public and private
0:54companies to help them deal with
0:55director succession meaning recruiting
0:58retirement of directors board
1:00evaluations how to make boards better
1:02and stronger of what they do and then
1:04also we work with director compensation
1:06so how do you pay directors properly on
1:08the other side as we work with
1:09candidates a production to the business
1:11and working with error and to get on
1:13boards and don’t know how to get there
1:14coach them and how to package themselves
1:16and how to market and more aggressively
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2:02the show and see how are you doing this
2:04morning
2:04I’m doing great Mitchell how are you
2:06super we really appreciate you coming on
2:08Nancy what’s the one
2:10thing that contributes most to your
2:12success I would say that it is a
2:14constant working towards learning new
2:17new tools and resources and pieces of
2:20information that are going to add value
2:21to my business but more importantly more
2:23value to the clients and people that I
2:25work with also pushing the envelope
2:27being as creative as possible and
2:29solving problems and reaching out and
2:31connecting and networking which is a
2:33good portion of what I do so how did you
2:36actually get into niche where not only
2:38are you helping directors but you’re
2:40also help women directors doing you know
2:42corporate coverage actually I was well
2:44into the business years back or a client
2:46are we doing my background is marketing
2:49and strategy and product design and
2:50development early on in the Indicom and
2:53Taipei way back when actually starting
2:55in the semiconductor industry then I
2:56went out and built my own strategy
2:57business and a client said chief
2:59everything you’re doing for me as a CEO
3:01is extremely valuable I really need to
3:04help like that in the boardroom can you
3:06work with me so I started to do some
3:07work with really six ever for that DL
3:09and then I started to add and quite
3:12frankly my philosophy was it was a lot
3:14easier and more enjoyable – rewarding to
3:17work at the top of the house in the
3:18middle of the bottom of the house our
3:20start-up around for all your hosting
3:22needs head on over to Mitchell Chad Road
3:24comm slash hosting Mitchell Chad Road
3:27comm flash hosting for all your web
3:30hosting need who do you used to host
3:32this website I that’s how I started to
3:34get into the board work and was early on
3:36before boards are where they are today
3:38was still bit of an old boys network and
3:40I thought that maybe the first thing to
3:43do would be only work with women in the
3:45boardroom and as much as I support women
3:48and I will continue to the day I die it
3:50was the fastest way back then to get
3:53into bankruptcy but not be in a business
3:55because companies and boards weren’t
3:57really looking for women at the time
3:58they said they were but they weren’t so
4:00much they also was that some of your
4:02early struggles in terms of starting out
4:05in this particular niche in that it was
4:07hard for you to basically help women not
4:10because you didn’t want to but because
4:12it was difficult to basically get women
4:15onto boards – tell us a little bit about
4:17those struggles and and and who actually
4:19helped you then continue to get your
4:21client
4:22how did you market yourself how did you
4:24strategize to sort of overcome that
4:27obstacle so challenge was was really
4:30sort of twofold with the corporation it
4:32was really before the conversations of
4:34getting women on board and having that
4:36strong diversity component was there
4:39there are a lot of information and
4:40resources out there for helping women
4:42get up the corporate ladder but there
4:44really wasn’t a whole lot going on in
4:46the boardroom and quite frankly the
4:48women that were there you know forgive
4:50anybody of your listeners who may be one
4:52of those but a lot of them really were
4:54the old guard women they used to refer
4:56them as the queen bee and the queen bees
4:58were noted for managing and owning their
5:02throne shall we say and really being
5:05inclusive and allowing other women into
5:08that boardroom it was their domain and
5:10was that with with do you think that
5:12that philosophy came because it was
5:14obviously extremely defensive figuring
5:17that they they didn’t want anybody to
5:18encroach because they feared that that
5:20would somehow jeopardize their own
5:22position so it doesn’t seem like a real
5:25leadership type of mindset yeah I would
5:28say that was probably the case the same
5:30thing in the corporate world there were
5:32some amazing women that I worked with
5:34who were strong leaders and then there
5:35were a few that ruled by fear not
5:38necessarily just in keeping the women at
5:40bay but a couple them really you know my
5:42boss early on there was one woman I
5:44remember I was at J Walter Thompson
5:46advertising and he said don’t work with
5:48Mary Ann she’ll cut your head off before
5:51you walk through the door he will by
5:53fear and intimidation it worked very
5:55well for her but not so much for the
5:57other people around them so who do you
5:59find yourself now working with white
6:01women leaders what companies I know that
6:03you also work with not only corporation
6:06but obviously individual ladies trying
6:09to get on to board can you talk to us a
6:10little bit about that and how you
6:12actually got your foot in the door with
6:14those companies and those individuals I
6:16started with with referrals and
6:18networking and people who knew me and
6:19trusted me quite frankly and by the end
6:22to say we’d like to have a conversation
6:23about this I learned what was going on
6:26in the boardroom space what worked what
6:27didn’t work from from the big global
6:29competitors and recruiters that were out
6:31there and I tried to do something
6:33differently that was a
6:34only service-oriented that was deep into
6:37research exceptionally honest I didn’t
6:39have any payback to give to other other
6:41clients that might have been you know
6:43general component or jobs which happens
6:45a lot in the industry so I was truly
6:48obligated to the needs and the values
6:51the outcomes of my clients in the board
6:53room only had no other agenda so that
6:55are you able to talk to us a little bit
6:56about specifics in terms of the types of
6:59companies that you’ve been able to sort
7:01of work with and help and also some
7:04individuals maybe know if they’re
7:06well-known companies or tell us a little
7:09bit about the type of clients that
7:10you’re working with specifically if you
7:12could well I will tell you about the the
7:14industries and and and generally types
7:17of companies I don’t mention names
7:19because of confidentiality and I signed
7:21you know confidential agreements with a
7:23lot of them not everybody does that but
7:25I hold the trust that we have with our
7:26board members very very close but do
7:29they allow you after you’ve been working
7:32with them for a little bit as well as
7:33the person that you play to then mention
7:36who that is so that it can actually help
7:39you in gaining additional business yeah
7:41a lot of them do not but they do they
7:43will be serviced as referrals for me so
7:45I picked you know pick up the phones if
7:47I need a referral I’ll call you know Jim
7:49or John or Sally or sue whatever and say
7:50you know would you act as a direct
7:52referral here is this yeah so maybe the
7:54type of individuals that you work with
7:56or the type of companies maybe maybe
7:58that would be more helpful than so we
8:00are we only work in the boardroom so
8:02that’s our area of specialty we don’t
8:04work in vertical Nicias necessarily from
8:06the industry perspective but we’ve
8:08worked with some of the largest
8:10financial institutions in the world
8:11depending upon how the market is going
8:13you want in particularly in the top rate
8:15and all the way down biotech company
8:17that was a smaller younger company that
8:19had an outside activist investor we’ve
8:21worked in boarding and consumer good
8:24we’ve worked in manufacturing it really
8:26has run again education health care
8:28market it has run the gamut in
8:30industries and what I find is a toward
8:33room are fairly similar and I mean
8:35they’re they’re similar in structure in
8:36many cases it’s the dynamics in the
8:38boardroom that change and people are
8:40serving what happens a little bit about
8:42those dynamic changing and corporate
8:44governance that you see as well as the
8:46role
8:47of obviously getting women onto the
8:49board that you have found over the
8:50decades well let’s start with women
8:52first if we may the role or the the
8:55interest of corporations bringing women
8:57on board is changed obviously here in
8:59the United States and world worldwide as
9:01there have been mandates
9:03put in more internationally than they
9:04have in the state the United States here
9:06there’s if there is a lot more pressure
9:08going on from even from a legislative
9:09perspective which I’m not sure it will
9:11actually happen 100% from an from a
9:14national perspective I just learned the
9:17other day that Pennsylvania has mandated
9:19that I think it’s 2020 they affect all
9:22public companies to have 30 percent of
9:23their board to be diverse that includes
9:26minorities as well as as women and had
9:28other statement there as it relates to
9:31it just so happens that I’m physically
9:32located in Pennsylvania but the podcast
9:34goes across the u.s. so how does some of
9:37the other state and are you saying that
9:38Pennsylvania is a leader in that area I
9:40don’t have those statistics information
9:42certainly finding them out for you and
9:44and send them on there that was
9:45something Elaine I research because I
9:48think that we would all be curious as a
9:49lot of our audience as you know are
9:52women entrepreneurs not only with their
9:54own businesses but also with their own
9:55careers as well professionally so there
9:58are a number of research organizations
9:59that are out there being tabs on what’s
10:01happening state-by-state icon is one
10:03it’s a not-for-profit that has actually
10:05been working on each state initiative to
10:07look at what’s happening with the number
10:08of women on public company board
10:10private company boards a little bit more
10:12difficult to find that out because the
10:14information is not always public however
10:15research has aided from what would have
10:18been accessible is that the private
10:19company boards are even less diverse and
10:22it’s more difficult for women to get on
10:23those particular boards over the years
10:25icon is one a CalPERS California state
10:28you know pension program has also done a
10:30program called 3d directors where they
10:32have a list of women directors Atlanta
10:34in Georgia has a group that has a women
10:36on both Canada has been very aggressive
10:38as well but obviously outside of our
10:40state or our countries I know that’s
10:43been very aggressive in getting women on
10:45board and maybe Gress is not the term
10:47but you know forward and correct and
10:49there are a number of activist on will
10:51call them or progressive folk that are
10:53actually only investing in companies
10:55that have more women and diversity
10:57directors on their board and so you talk
10:59to us will
11:00little bit about your early background
11:02as a marketing person as a strategist
11:05and so I know that you had also
11:07mentioned referral sources other than
11:09that what other ways I think that people
11:11would be curious to find out how are you
11:13actually getting to these clients you
11:16mention opry financial institution it
11:18just so happens that that’s my
11:19particular background as well so I’ve
11:21acted as investment council and Bank and
11:24Trust Council for four major
11:25corporations financial in nature how did
11:28you actually get in what has been your
11:30strategies that have worked for you
11:32because whether it’s someone trying to
11:34get onto a board or someone who’s trying
11:36to land that deal with that company how
11:39have you been able to do it in your
11:41niche well I write or I write for a
11:43publication called the chief executive
11:44forum magazine which goes out to about
11:4620,000 CEOs around the country so that’s
11:49a very tight market something that is
11:51the audience that I need to speak to I’m
11:54a member of a number of associations and
11:55groups that deal with CEOs and board so
11:58I’m visible there I speak to different
12:00industry groups that relate to that both
12:02from the general counsel perspective are
12:03spoken to General Counsel’s CFO that
12:06particular audience I have particular
12:08group of women in this particular case
12:11that were drawn networker one another
12:12once and once every other month we get
12:14together I actually call it
12:16Nancy’s great Women’s Network and I said
12:18they’re actually two rules to being a
12:19great woman and the first rule is you
12:21have to offer help yourself I don’t care
12:23what your ask is or what it’s about but
12:25it has to be for yourself and nobody
12:27else it’s your turn to be selfish and
12:28because women are not really good at
12:30asking for help and then the other rule
12:32is is which we do extremely well is that
12:34you open your resource in your rolodex
12:36to people in that particular room and
12:38because you try their trusted group of
12:40individuals and they do and we’ve been
12:42doing this for a number of years and
12:43guarded that if they close out three
12:45years ago I’ve been doing it for a long
12:47time
12:47fascinating peek at one of these
12:48particular engagements you mean to tell
12:50me a president of a major corporation
12:52just walks up to you afterward just
12:54starts to chitchat and says hey by the
12:56way we need somebody on our board can
12:58you do that search for us how does it
13:00actually happen what happens typically
13:02as the conversational say I’d like to
13:04talk to you further about some of the
13:05work you do and then we’ll have a phone
13:07conversation or you know face-to-face
13:09conversation and I’ll find out a little
13:11bit more what’s going on inside
13:13wardroom it could be a director who’s
13:15retiring it could be somebody that had
13:17been difficult that they want to get rid
13:18of I had that with you know one one
13:20client not too long ago had actually
13:22hired or bought a director on that they
13:25knew as a friend and then when he got
13:27into the boardroom
13:27he was toxic he was rude disruptive
13:31didn’t come prepared challenge
13:33management to a point that was not
13:36productive it was actually disruptive
13:38and they were uncomfortable in letting
13:41this guy go but for they lived with this
13:43thorn in their side for almost four and
13:45a half years until they said it was time
13:47for him not to stand for reelection
13:48somebody was strong enough to say hey
13:50time for you to go Joe and or not came
13:53for reelection is typically what they do
13:54on the flip side of that you’re also
13:56working with people trying to get them
13:59placed onto the board so your client is
14:01the individual as opposed to the
14:03corporation talk to us a little bit
14:04about some of the issues in working
14:07through because that person’s coming
14:09into a culture in a subculture where
14:11there might be issues tell us some of
14:13the things that you’ve had to work
14:14through in helping to place them and
14:17sort of walking them through all the
14:18various issues that the company is
14:20dealing with basically so there’s two
14:22sides to that is if the company is my
14:25client and I’ve got a lineup of
14:27prospective candidates for that
14:29particular company we will when we get a
14:31shortlist of individuals after we’ve
14:33reviewed them with the corporation and
14:35we’ve narrowed it down to a shorter list
14:37I will say I will have a phone
14:38conversation or an in-person
14:39conversation with every single
14:41individual explaining some of the
14:43dynamics that are going on within the
14:45parameters that were allowed to talk
14:47about help them understand the the
14:49personalities around the table some of
14:51the challenges of their company going
14:52through why their background is of value
14:55or where there may be some uphill
14:57challenges and so they are properly
14:59informed before they walk into an
15:02interview with with a director or a
15:04group of directors that’s on that side
15:06on the candidate coaching side which is
15:08a separate business altogether it’s
15:10coaching individuals one-on-one who want
15:12to get on board there are some key
15:14things that that I inevitably find right
15:17across the board I would say 95% of
15:21those individuals are not packaged
15:23properly meaning their information on
15:25how they present themselves
15:27from an employee perspective versus a
15:29candidate perspective to serve on a
15:31board or board pier is totally
15:33disconnected so we typically work in the
15:36beginning on just racking that up to a
15:39higher level of visibility so the
15:40position is a board person so talk to us
15:42a little bit about somebody who might be
15:44extremely qualified but for whatever
15:46reason whether it be on paper or the way
15:48that they’ve come across in the past has
15:50prevented them from sort of getting on
15:52to a board what have you coached them or
15:54what have you sort of done to help them
15:56and on the flip side what have you done
15:58with the company in terms of presenting
16:00the company in a more appealing way that
16:02attracts higher caliber type of
16:04individual where maybe people in the
16:06past have shied away from it because
16:08they don’t want to sort of deal with all
16:09the chaos and all the various issues so
16:12on the other candidates either candidate
16:14coaching side there I’ll give you two
16:16examples one was female and one was male
16:18female was really reported right into
16:21the CEO with a vice-chairman level
16:23extremely competent and talented
16:25individual but she just didn’t know how
16:28to present her accomplishments in a
16:30quantifiable and valued way from a board
16:33perspective once we were done with work
16:36you know we worked back and forth I
16:38don’t do the work directly I coach the
16:40individual to own their work and walk
16:42through this with them very tightly
16:44every week we have phone calls and
16:46conversations about how to do this and
16:48they work through the process at the end
16:50I’ll take it and we’ll tweak it and
16:52polish it up a little bit but they have
16:54to own the material they lived it I
16:56haven’t and they can’t speak to it to
16:58somebody else then we failed but at the
17:00end about seven weeks she looked at the
17:02material and I said you know he’s the
17:04terms name Susie I so if you Susie and
17:06Joseph my general terms with what I’m
17:08talking about these individuals is a
17:10city what do you think about this person
17:12now is on paper and she she actually it
17:15could hear her light up on the function
17:16of oh my god I don’t recognize this
17:18person I said but it’s you if everything
17:20you’ve done we’ve done nothing different
17:22than they highlight and bring your your
17:24great accomplishments to the to the
17:26forefront she goes I know that I just
17:28didn’t know how to uncover it myself
17:29though and she’s out there you know
17:31networking it’s changed the conversation
17:33totally for where she was before which
17:36is no I think because this is such a
17:38high niche
17:39board governance working with not only
17:42women going onto a board how do you
17:44structure how you get paid at the end of
17:47the day I think people would be curious
17:48for their own business in terms of how
17:50they structure their own their own
17:52compensation how do you do that because
17:55with someone like that your hand holding
17:57a lot more than someone who’s already
17:59polished who’s already very sharp and
18:01sort of you’re able to present them a
18:04quicker manner so how do you compensate
18:06yourself for those cases that are a
18:09little bit more challenging well if I
18:10find that there’s a little bit more
18:11challenge I typically you know put a
18:13higher fee on it but it’s a fee for
18:15service for the coaching I have very
18:17depend upon after an initial
18:19conversation I do what I call an upfront
18:21conversation where we really just sort
18:23of go through a deep dive and I present
18:25them with an overview of where I think
18:27they are aware I think their challenges
18:28are working through opportunities are
18:30and and where I think the roadblocks are
18:32going to be and how we can work together
18:33and I give them typically three options
18:36you know package a B or C and the first
18:38could be just putting your material
18:40together so they’re packaged properly
18:41and ready to mark themselves by
18:43themselves and then the others are you
18:45know hand-holding then consulting and
18:47coaching them through the process in
18:49terms of numbers just to kind of go a
18:51little bit a little bit deeper is there
18:53a formula is it based on what the person
18:55salary was is it based on a number of
18:58hours provided is it based on the what
19:01the overall package might be with a
19:03particular corporation that talked to us
19:05a little bit about how those three
19:07packages look so for the individual the
19:09individual coaching I set them up based
19:12on sort of deliverables or time frames
19:14the first one I deliver so it be
19:16deliverable so we’re packaging somebody
19:18because obviously a Bayona CV and that
19:20at end of story was done typically runs
19:22about seven to ten weeks though I’ve got
19:25you know I’ve got a set fee for that
19:27knowing what’s going to have on the on
19:29the coaching side the process of where
19:30how you get on a board I do it based in
19:33you can you give us a rough guess like
19:34how many clients would you work with in
19:36that space in a 52 weeks and at one
19:38year’s period of time I’m very selective
19:40so I can I can work from I don’t know
19:44I’ve actually looked there from a 52
19:46week time period should be honest with
19:47you I haven’t counted them up but
19:49typically I’ll work with no more than
19:51about five at a time
19:52five or six at a time and a flat fee
19:54might range anywhere from flat can you
19:58give us an idea yeah flat fee on that
20:00will range from about 12,500 on up to
20:03about 19,000 depending upon the
20:06difficulty and complexity of that
20:07package alone sure
20:09and then only on the corporation side
20:10how does the corporation’s then sort of
20:13compensate you and what are some of the
20:15issues were the packages that you work
20:17with through with them so a corporation
20:20if they’re dealing with a directory
20:21succession it’s a again a flat fee
20:23because we don’t work like a regular
20:25search firm would based on a percentage
20:27of salary and we on the board side also
20:30I want to add that we will work with
20:32corporations to coach them through the
20:34process so if they want to own it and do
20:36it themselves we’ll do that as well and
20:38and on the low side for that we’re doing
20:40about you know $30,000 it’s a quick
20:42in-and-out type of thing corporation is
20:44hiring you if the corporation is hiring
20:46to do to do in this particular case I’m
20:49talking about a review of one individual
20:51that they may have looked at and said we
20:53want to do an independent review how do
20:55we do and go through that so that would
20:57be a fairly inexpensive type of product
20:59or service so we’re doing about $30,000
21:01there and how many of those might you do
21:04in a typical year oh that could be about
21:0625 30 yeah Canada Canada correct and
21:09what other types of things with the
21:11corporation then hire you to sort of
21:13revenue becomes a scalability some of
21:15the some of the entrepreneurs out there
21:17gal up and sort of hire more people
21:19others or solopreneurs and it’s sort of
21:22themselves and you could only be at one
21:24place at one time and so people are
21:26curious as to how you actually structure
21:30that terms those are you capped at what
21:32you can sort of earn in this particular
21:34niche yes we are very niche oriented
21:36business I do not work below the
21:38boardroom so of the kind of business or
21:40in is not scalable as if it were a
21:42general search firm which is very
21:44different and I’ll be honest with you
21:45that it is what it is it’s a small to
21:49medium sized business something that
21:50we’ve done extremely well on personally
21:53and professionally and and I love the
21:55work that we do so and we’re trusted and
21:57respected but on the on the board search
22:01side itself that ranges from on the
22:05both sides we’re doing 75,000 it goes to
22:08about 150 per individual candidate and
22:11how many of those might you do in a
22:13year’s time
22:13this gives the audience the ability to
22:16appreciate your business and sort of
22:18kind of take them inside a little bit in
22:20terms of helping them appreciate a
22:23little bit about what you’re doing day
22:25to day sure I understand that can that
22:28ranges depending upon what’s going on in
22:30the market from it could be you know
22:32small it could be doing ten of them on
22:34up to about twenty five or thirty of
22:36them and in terms of your own
22:38competition again at this level because
22:40it’s a buckets it’s not below the board
22:42it’s at the board level with not knowing
22:44the industry as well obviously as you do
22:46can you talk to us a little bit about
22:48competition out there I mean obviously
22:50there you say it’s not scalable I mean
22:52are there there must be you know
22:54entities out there that are that are
22:56much larger in terms of just the numbers
22:58of people in terms of the quantity but
23:01can you talk to us a little bit about at
23:03this level what what type of competition
23:05you sort of face so we face actually
23:09sees a lot of competition from the large
23:11global search firm they’re big names
23:12that everybody knows out there what they
23:14are dealing with is not just the boards
23:16the boards or the board practice is
23:19actually small not not dissimilar to the
23:22size of our business it’s over their
23:24business that is large
23:25it’s the recruiting and the search work
23:28and the consulting work in the c-suite
23:30and below so finding CEOs finding CFOs
23:33recruiting CIOs or check people it could
23:36be and CFOs accountants junior level
23:39people that’s where the scalability is
23:42in hiring and coaching shall we say you
23:44know an executive coach of the executive
23:47team the body of a corporation in this
23:50business talk to us a little bit about
23:52it looks as if you have a lot of past
23:55and current experiences with with
23:57several advisory boards I mean I see
24:00here Norris onyx incorporated economic
24:03ventures I know that your you had
24:05mentioned being involved with a Women’s
24:08Forum group so I see
24:10International Women’s Forum Economic
24:12Club of New York I mean talk to us a
24:14little bit about that because how do you
24:16sort of balance being involved with all
24:18of that and then your your day to day
24:20stuff here at at the company
24:22it’s a tough time I have taken them on
24:25usually one or two at a time from a
24:27board perspective or an advisory role I
24:30actually in each particular case that
24:33I’m working with either on a board or
24:34advisory board role will be very
24:36specific about my time and availability
24:38and they will let me know what is what
24:41what they need from me if a board or a
24:44group it could be entrepreneurs or
24:47others that need my help and support
24:49cannot do that then I will typically
24:52pass I need to know exactly what’s
24:53expected to you why and where I can be
24:55of help otherwise if I can’t get that
24:58information I find it’s of no value to
25:00them and it can be a waste of my time
25:01that we’re chasing you know we’re
25:03herding cats as they say in fact I was
25:05just sizing a young company that’s
25:07starting up a non-profit have great
25:09respect for the founders and they are
25:11just asking anybody who’s writing a
25:13check to be on the board I said
25:14absolutely not you don’t have to do that
25:16this is what you need to do so I gave
25:18them some advice on how to structure
25:20what it is they look for so I’m waiting
25:22to see what that that board role job
25:25description is from them at the moment
25:28so that so that I can help them make the
25:30right decisions on and and so
25:32specifically with with economic ventures
25:34for example here it says you know that
25:37you’re the chairman of the board how did
25:38you get involved with that tell us a
25:40little bit about that and give us some
25:42insight there economic ventures is is an
25:45educational organization and they work
25:48with middle and high school students to
25:50teach them entrepreneurship and how to
25:52create sustainable businesses versus
25:54just Hobby jobs and they’ve been
25:55extremely successful it was all called a
25:58spinoff from the Kauffman Foundation
26:00which was taken out by one of one by one
26:03my name is or is run by the Newman
26:05woman’s Carey McIndoe out of New York
26:07Kerry is an extreme entrepreneur she’s a
26:10terrific lady and started in the venture
26:12capital world up in Boston and we’ve
26:14been friends for I state I was out 25 30
26:17years so it’s enough it’s enough for
26:19profit correct correct correct
26:20interestingly enough a few months back
26:23we had on
26:24tres rossman who actually started tech
26:26girl which actually works with middle
26:29school children in the tech space just
26:31because a lot of girls at that level are
26:34not going into technology heading into
26:37high school so when it talks about
26:39entrepreneurship how have you been able
26:41to sort of get into these schools and
26:43sort of build this nonprofit because
26:45it’s a very you know I have two girls
26:47myself so it’s an interest to a lot of
26:50people and so how have you been able to
26:51do that when working in the school space
26:54is very difficult
26:55they have budgets the timelines what
26:57carrie has done is actually gone around
26:59the school system on the outside and do
27:02them as off school or off school our
27:05type of program there’s a lot that goes
27:07on in the summer time for vacation
27:09period and then one on one smaller
27:11groups that are that are going on
27:13throughout the school year after school
27:14system so she’s done that she’s also
27:16worked with community groups there’s a
27:19number of large church and and religious
27:22groups that she’s worked with where they
27:24are concerned about the quality of the
27:26education and the future of their
27:27children and that has been very
27:29successful for her including with state
27:31government organizations that are
27:33looking at economic development down the
27:35road how do you how do you make sure
27:36that these children have an opportunity
27:38to to grow and become independent
27:40successful kids detective a success that
27:42successful adults so as a non-profit I
27:46think you had mentioned the Kauffman
27:47Foundation I’m not sure if you did or
27:48not but how does it generate how does it
27:51generate money in terms of do you charge
27:53are these after school courses I know
27:56that with tech girls for example they
27:58they actually created their own and it
28:01downloadable on their website so what
28:03does economic ventures do to the revenue
28:06model is it charge at the
28:07fee-for-service program so they charge
28:09for that they also have grants and and
28:11donors that get involved in the
28:13organization that they has done they
28:15grant to do programs and support them as
28:17well and is that the same type of thing
28:19as Economic Club of New York II hear ya
28:22the Economic Club of New York is is a
28:25very different organization I am NOT on
28:27the board air I’m a member of that
28:29particular organization it’s a very well
28:30known old established organization of
28:32economist Willie
28:33around the country in many cases around
28:36the world that come in to talk about the
28:38state of the economy finances they’ve
28:40now started to add some entrepreneurs
28:42they had Brian Chesky who is the founder
28:44and CEO of Airbnb recently they’re
28:47Howard Schultz will be coming Boone to
28:49talk about what’s happening in Starbucks
28:52Hillary Clinton is been there over the
28:53years Donald Trump when he was running
28:55for office whether you like him or not
28:56not to get political here on either
28:58there’s Ben Bernanke would come and talk
29:01about the state of the economy though it
29:03is it’s an incredible opportunity to
29:05meet and and learn and get to know some
29:08of the most brilliant minds and economic
29:12growth in the country and are you still
29:13involved on the advisory board at the
29:15neuro Sonic’s and if so can you tell us
29:18a little bit about you know what they’ve
29:19been involved there ya know a Sonic’s
29:21winding down right now it was really
29:23sort of ahead of its time and I would
29:25say lost his way like know Sonic’s was a
29:28really incredible sense of sort of
29:29technology that was able to use brain
29:32waves to project images on on to
29:36tactical events they were looking to get
29:38into the government and do a lot of work
29:40from a military strategic planning but
29:43it was a sort of a futuristic type of
29:46way to he had that the brain waves to
29:51project we yeah you know it’s
29:54interesting you said that it was ahead
29:56of its time and it’s winding down so it
29:59doesn’t sound like when I hear someone
30:02say that you know I hear that
30:05it might not have been as successful as
30:07one might have thought and so but you
30:10learn a lot from from those those
30:12failures or at least what you’ve learned
30:15along the way so can you talk to some of
30:18the entrepreneurs out there in terms of
30:20lessons learned so that you can impart
30:23some wisdom as they as they look to
30:25their own businesses in terms of what to
30:27avoid or what to do because you know
30:29they’re working on all different types
30:31of technology right I would say you know
30:33the biggest challenge I think a very
30:35talented and creative entrepreneur has
30:37is probably not to be what I call
30:40bleeding edge versus leading edge
30:44getting too far ahead of a curve when
30:46the markets not able
30:47or available to accept or use an an idea
30:51or an outcome is very challenging and
30:53it’s frustrating for the entrepreneur
30:54seeing it a number of times and so the
30:57market is just not ready to accept or
30:59embrace either product or service and it
31:01does happen the best thing to do is try
31:04and figure out how to when you can be as
31:07one corporation I’ve worked with in the
31:09past they never like to be a front
31:11leader they like to be a fast second
31:13sure and that’s why we talk about
31:15validating your idea in other words
31:17going out testing a smaller smaller
31:20segment of the market to see if it’s
31:22even a viable option in terms of you
31:25know will will people pay true dollars
31:28for for that product or service before
31:32before totally scaling up your right the
31:35other thing I think and I’ve seen this a
31:37number of times would it be a product or
31:39service oriented type of entrepreneurial
31:41business is that if you are
31:43uncomfortable selling if you don’t like
31:46to go out and talk to people and make a
31:48transaction you know have a cash
31:52transaction happen at the end then don’t
31:55get into business for yourself is very
31:58difficult and we’re or maybe maybe
32:01because we’ve talked about teams and I’m
32:03going to be asking you about yours in a
32:04little bit but where where maybe some of
32:07your strengths might not lie bringing
32:09somebody in whether as a contractor or
32:12as an employee or somebody who has those
32:15skill sets that you don’t have to sort
32:17of complement what it is that you’re
32:19doing whether it be a co-founder or what
32:22have you
32:22what would you agree I would agree I
32:23still would say that the entrepreneur
32:25themselves have to be able to be
32:27comfortable making a sale making a
32:29transaction putting the sale
32:30responsibility on somebody else is very
32:32difficult to make it work in the
32:34beginning and I just see time and time
32:36again unless they’re actually an owner
32:38and have pain that that’s going to
32:41happen if it doesn’t close there’s
32:42things don’t go work that I think that’s
32:44that’s that’s key number one for
32:46everything
32:47we’ve already spoken about a lot of the
32:48boards and a lot of the other
32:50involvement that you’ve had but in terms
32:52of your community involvement especially
32:54with two girls myself it says here that
32:56you were on the board they
32:58in Connecticut for the Girl Scouts can
33:01you talk to us a little bit about how
33:03you got involved with that and some of
33:05the good works that you were doing there
33:06I love my time in the boy with the girls
33:08guys it was it was exciting and
33:10frustrating at the same time so I was a
33:12Girl Scout I started out in brownies my
33:14mother was a Girl Scout leader and I’m
33:16still close friends with some of the
33:18girls have women that were also Girl
33:20Scouts with me and their moms that were
33:22our leaders friend was on the board
33:24locally and said that to me that she
33:26they were looking for other directors to
33:28Geor people to join the board of
33:30directors and I asked what that entailed
33:32and she explained and gave me an outline
33:34and I said well I’d actually love to be
33:36able to give that to the girls because I
33:38was a Girl Scout
33:39and so I was invited to join the board
33:42at the time they did not necessarily
33:43have a detailed job description when I
33:46got there and eventually ended up
33:48sharing the nominating and Governance
33:49Committee that changed because quite
33:53quickly over time they had Theta people
33:55who came on and didn’t do the work and
33:57so we don’t know what the roles and
33:58responsibilities are and what’s expected
34:01of us how can we commit or to help any
34:03organization you know be happy with the
34:05outcomes of the individuals that are on
34:07the board you know two of the fun facts
34:10that I that I uncovered about you and
34:12I’ll just get you to sort of comment on
34:16the one I thought was really cool and I
34:18want to you know and here here you can
34:20sort of brag a little bit you know we we
34:22talk about you know you have to ask you
34:23got to be a little you know you got got
34:25to reflect says here that the United
34:28States Small Business Administration
34:30honor as state of Connecticut’s women’s
34:32business advocate of the year so how
34:34does one sort of get thrown in the ring
34:37for that how do you sort of gain that
34:39type of visibility to sort of rise above
34:43all the other because I’m sure the
34:45competition was kind of steep that year
34:47so how does how does someone like
34:49yourself do that I know that you’ve
34:52already spoken to us about how you write
34:54and how you go out and put yourself out
34:56there in lecture but you know that
35:00doesn’t tell us how you sort of still
35:01then went ahead above and beyond and
35:03differentiated to sort of get that well
35:06in that year or in that era then I had
35:10also been voted in as
35:12of an organization called the
35:14entrepreneurial Women’s Network in
35:15Fairfield County Connecticut which was a
35:18165 member organization that I joined
35:21because I saw an article when I first
35:23went into business for myself now 28
35:25years ago and I said kind of all by
35:27myself I saw this great article that
35:28other women getting together why are not
35:30you like a family group by just going
35:32and join there and joining with her
35:34there lobster bake which I did and one
35:37thing led to another as I said if you
35:40don’t want to be charged with the
35:41responsibility keep your mouth shut and
35:43I just kept opening my mouth saying have
35:45you thought can we do this business and
35:47yeah I opened my mouth wink too many
35:50times and they said we’d like to
35:52nominate you as president and I thought
35:54okay what does that entail besides other
35:56things and I learned but they had 165
35:58members they were losing 40% of their
36:00members a year which was not a positive
36:02way to move into a leadership role so I
36:04thought okay we’ve got to make some
36:06changes we did some structural and
36:07strategic changes to the organization we
36:10also changed out the board this was one
36:12of my early governance involvements to
36:14where we had a board of about 35 people
36:17and I asked everybody to resign retire
36:20and we restructured the board to a board
36:23of eight people and we went from 165
36:26losing 40 percent a year to 425 members
36:29in a year national recognition of groups
36:32wanting to organize or people wanted to
36:34start either we went around the country
36:35and that was one of the ways that I
36:37gained visibility I loved the work that
36:39I did there and it was exciting and I
36:42learned a whole hell a lot I got crazy
36:44business from the two and and there’s so
36:46much power in that story but the most
36:49powerful thing that I want the people in
36:51the audience to sort of take away from
36:53it is is that from reading one small
36:56article which obviously wasn’t so small
36:59you actually took some action and sort
37:02of moved towards towards that and from
37:05that it opened up all of these various
37:06doors you know a lot of people are out
37:08there thinking you know how can I get in
37:10or how can I make this possible or
37:12whatever there’s just one small little
37:14thing that might be the difference
37:16between either getting in or not getting
37:18in it’s just a matter of putting
37:19yourself out there and I think I think
37:21that’s pretty cool yeah I would say the
37:23one key word to all of this is
37:26never be afraid to ask for anything I’ll
37:30tell what it is but never be afraid to
37:32ask you know it’s interesting I always
37:34tell my girls if you don’t ask me the
37:36answer is always no so they’ve learned
37:38that the answer so so they’ve learned
37:42that if they if they you know the answer
37:45still may be now but if they don’t ask
37:47right it’ll always stay now so you never
37:50know I might surprise you and on more
37:53than one occasion I have because I knew
37:55what they were doing and I said you know
37:57what I’m gonna I’m going to say yes now
37:59because of the initiative that they talk
38:01to just merely ass so that’s also kind
38:04of kind of a cool story there you know
38:06the the other the other cool thing that
38:08I saw here and with without obviously
38:10getting too political is it says you
38:12were invited to meet President Clinton
38:14has a nation’s top business leader so
38:17did you actually get to meet uh I wasn’t
38:19clean I did I was on stage with them
38:22tell me tell me all about that because
38:24people people want that they want to
38:27know how did you actually make that
38:30happen people don’t get to meet
38:32presidents no they say that they don’t
38:34and you laugh you’re talking about your
38:37kids like my husband you know I came
38:39home from that event when that night and
38:41he said so what happened and he just
38:43sort of turned red he said you didn’t
38:45like oh please your hand do something
38:47silly did you and I said no I did
38:49nothing silly like you know he’s always
38:51knows that if there’s a way for me to
38:53wiggle my way in a door I will get there
38:55so in this particular case I got I got a
38:58call from from the Democratic Committee
39:00who said you know the president is
39:02coming into town we’ve invited some of
39:05the country’s top small business leaders
39:07to to be part of the conversation and
39:10we’d like to invite you and I thought oh
39:11geez you know I really don’t have a lot
39:13of time as like wait a second it’s the
39:14president of the states how often do you
39:16get that opportunity not not not very
39:18often right so I said okay I guess I can
39:21afford the day off and I and I I went
39:24down to where he was in Stanford
39:26Connecticut and there was we’re all
39:28sitting in an audience and I didn’t
39:30realize that it was just Connecticut
39:31these were five hundreds of small
39:33business owners from around the country
39:34they came as far away from his Alaska I
39:36had no idea so I was a real honor
39:39that I was aware what a privilege it was
39:42and then somebody from the stage came
39:45down is that we have one seat left on
39:47the stage and we need to fill it is
39:49there anybody who would like to sit
39:51before he finished the sentence I was up
39:53and next woman I’m running to it so so
39:55at the time that the person contacted
39:58you you knew that you were going to go
39:59down to hear him speak
40:00but you had absolutely no idea that you
40:03were going to actually then at some
40:05point possibly be up on stage with him
40:08correct and and out of curiosity how was
40:12it that the person who invited you there
40:14how did you what were you doing in your
40:17community that made them contact you to
40:20even invite you in the first place
40:24Mitchell I wish I knew that answer I
40:26don’t know I mean I got I just got a
40:28call the night before to say you’ve been
40:32selected would you like to come and I
40:34and you and you never found out exactly
40:37how it was that you were selected or who
40:39who said hey you need to contact this
40:41person or what have you and so the
40:44interesting thing about it is is that
40:46there’s so many different opportunities
40:47you just never know and I’ll bet you
40:50that the story is is that you probably
40:53met somebody there that you’re probably
40:54still in contact with to this day can
40:57you can you tell us about that
40:59well I don’t think there’s anybody that
41:01I’ve met that I met that particular
41:04event that I’m still in contact with but
41:07there have been people in in the
41:08government that I are passed across we
41:11stayed in loose contact Carol Browner
41:14who was second in charge of the EPA I
41:16met in Washington and I remember her
41:19asking me what’s it like to be an
41:21entrepreneur and because she was
41:24concerned about leaving the
41:26administration at the end of every
41:28administration they all change out and
41:30she was nervous you know about about
41:32doing this and going out she was having
41:34a child I was going to go into college
41:36soon and she was thinking about going
41:38into business with another individual
41:40out of the administration and I said
41:42Carol I would much rather be an
41:43entrepreneur because I’m in control of
41:45my future I know what I can do I can get
41:48anywhere I particularly want as an
41:50entrepreneur as long as I work at it
41:52you in government you have to look for a
41:54job every four years I don’t want that
41:56job and she didn’t understand it
42:00it is it is quite a different mindset is
42:03it not yes yes I also want to know it
42:06was like emotionally to be an
42:07entrepreneur and I’m used this with
42:09friends before and I said well at any
42:11stage of the game there are highs and
42:13lows so I’ve never had this illness but
42:16my sense is it’s kind of like being
42:18bipolar you can be up in the morning
42:20down at lunch and flying high again at
42:22the edge by dinnertime and every day is
42:25an exciting ride no matter how you
42:27market but it’s yours to make it succeed
42:32and don’t need that that’s the joy
42:34that’s awesome
42:35our Fast Pitch Mitchell Chad Road comm
42:39slash books for books audiobooks guests
42:43recommendations and the books that I
42:45read to start off each day sponsors are
42:49fast pitch my book club recommendations
42:52that get Mitchell Chad Road calm slash
42:54books to see more of my recommendations
42:57and recommendations of our guests just
42:59go to Mitchell Chad wrote calm slash
43:01books it’s your number one resource for
43:04book reviews and recommendations so Kate
43:07can you tell us about a book that’s
43:09influenced you whether it be in business
43:11personal or life I’ve just recently read
43:14a book called bet evil and bet evil is
43:16worried about gentleman who was a writer
43:19in New York who basically gave up his
43:21life to take care of his aging mother
43:22and I’m dealing with that right now with
43:24my parents who I love very dearly time
43:26consuming but a great gave me great
43:27cause it was it was a wonderfully
43:29written book my brothers well you know
43:31it’s interesting about taking care on
43:33Harriet that’s obviously getting older
43:35and then the kind of the circle kind of
43:36comes full circle around where they took
43:39care of you while you were growing up
43:41and now you’re you’re in the process of
43:42doing the same and the podcast is not
43:45just about entrepreneurship and business
43:47it’s about business family in life and
43:49how people obviously balance all three
43:52of those and one of the things that we
43:53didn’t get into earlier in the podcast
43:55because we you know sometimes these
43:57questions will elicit other things from
44:00from our guests is that how do you then
44:02balance taking care of your parents
44:04obviously having a business and having
44:07other employees that that are also
44:09dependent upon you as well and then you
44:11have outside involvement with community
44:13activities and I’m sure I’m sure it’s a
44:16challenge it is a challenge I would
44:18considered very rewarding because
44:20there’s so many things my dad was an
44:21entrepreneur too
44:22he took over a business from from his
44:24his father so I had that that sort of
44:26role model growing and what type of
44:28business did they have my dad designed a
44:30manufactured eyeglass frame so all the
44:32frames that Elton John and Jackie O and
44:34the politicians were famous for wearing
44:36those are my dad Wow yeah so just a
44:38really neat niche like that because when
44:41you think of you know people are trying
44:42to come up with ideas hey what can I do
44:44and here that particular idea I don’t
44:47know how many people would think of hey
44:49let me do that but yet very successful
44:51and a very very specialized niche again
44:54because of the the higher quality and
44:56the higher design correct absolutely and
44:58I’m still learning some of the things
44:59that he did that will be 97 this year
45:01that that I didn’t know about that are
45:03coming out so that’s pretty exciting so
45:05I’m you know I sit by it’s a different I
45:08consider it really a side business
45:10because that’s what I’m doing managing
45:11their finances their care the housing
45:13all the you know all investments that
45:16they’ve got medical issues it’s just you
45:18know I put my business hat and say it is
45:20mom and dad LLC you know what I love it
45:24and it almost sounds like a totally
45:26another podcast show that we could
45:29actually do just geared towards that so
45:32what happened to the business what my
45:34dad what they I learned about unions
45:36they struggle through the Union
45:37challenges in New York they eventually
45:39move the business from New York where I
45:41grew up originally up to Massachusetts
45:43and revitalise we turned around the
45:45business and my dad sold the business to
45:47his brother who desperately wanted my
45:49mom wanted out that let’s retire so he
45:51sold the business to his brother and
45:52unfortunately my uncle didn’t like the
45:55cell and the business went downhill from
45:57there and when we we’ve talked before
45:59about succession planning and working
46:02with the second and third generation and
46:04how do you how do you have a cohesive
46:05legacy plan within the business just
46:07very interesting far as productivity
46:09goes you know there’s the we you know
46:11we’ve heard the saying there’s an app
46:12for that
46:13so what would you say
46:15is an app that you use all the time
46:17whether it be in business family or life
46:19that has really helped you quite a bit
46:21oh how do you productivity in focus I’m
46:23not sure there’s actually a per se one
46:26that I use the one that I’ve recently
46:27started to use is mind focus it will
46:32it’s a site called focus it will good
46:34I just put my headphones on when I need
46:36to close everything out and audio design
46:39tool that helps the brain just a can
46:42totally focus on what it is you’re doing
46:44at the time and I found that to be very
46:47helpful we talked to a lot of startups
46:49and they’re there trying to get started
46:51that is a website and so we talked to
46:54them about well who you use for hosting
46:56who’s good like I use Hostgator for
46:58example to host my numerous niche sites
47:00or whatever so who do you work with
47:01could you use there’s a there’s a low
47:03here in Connecticut that has theirs of
47:05servers that I rely on and he’s been
47:08he’s been the you know a solid source so
47:10I don’t use a GoDaddy or anything like
47:12that I use his business and he holds it
47:14take care of everything we’ve got our
47:16sites designed on on a platform called
47:18concrete 5 so that anyone of us here can
47:20go in and make changes and edit of the
47:22content we’re not we’re not reliant on
47:24an outside you know tech person to do
47:27that for us which I prefer because it
47:28gives us the fluidity of what we want to
47:31put in there and when we want to take it
47:32off and look the last question in this
47:34round really goes again toward being
47:36resourceful because one of the things
47:38that our entrepreneurs like to do is
47:40leverage resources they can’t go out and
47:42hire let’s say a graphic designer
47:44and so they have to rely on other means
47:47and so for me like I use canva quite a
47:49bit for my own graphic design in my
47:51photo so who do you who do you use or
47:53who do you work with oh well I Rea I I
47:56rely on myself a lot quite frankly
47:57because I had a degree I’ve taken some
48:00time off and did a degree in commercial
48:02advertising and design as well so I have
48:04a good sense of design and I know what
48:05what I like and what I don’t like if you
48:07use a tool though I mean to sort of
48:10complement what it is that you’re doing
48:11and obviously you’re doing a lot of
48:12writing as you had mentioned before and
48:15you do a lot of speaking engagement so
48:17is there is there something that helps
48:18compliment you know for those out there
48:20who let’s say don’t have that type of
48:22background well most recently I was
48:24having problems with presentation I
48:26needed some PowerPoint and it wasn’t
48:28looking good
48:28so I called a friend and hired her to do
48:31through the work and lay it out and that
48:33was a PowerPoint presentation so they
48:35use I use Photoshop when I need it
48:37because you know I not doing a whole lot
48:39of print work because we don’t need to
48:40do the print work you know the basic
48:42desktop publishing tools that were using
48:44particularly things we mentioned your
48:47team I know you have an advisory
48:48committee and I know that you have a few
48:50employees so can you just briefly tell
48:53us a little bit about their backgrounds
48:55kind of gives the audience a little bit
48:56more in-depth as to the company and your
48:59capabilities there or my advisory team
49:02are a group of individuals who have been
49:05CEOs and senior leaders of public
49:07companies as well as entrepreneurial
49:08corporations I rely on them for many as
49:11a sounding board or making sure I’m
49:13making the right decision and some cases
49:15getting some input and say okay I heard
49:17that that was then this is now I need to
49:19make my own decisions so that’s been
49:21very helpful they’ve opened doors for me
49:22which has been good my team I’m sort of
49:25the fun the fun person but that’s always
49:26waited then people call me my brand and
49:29my name that they know behind the scenes
49:31I’ve got writers researchers you know
49:33tech people as I need them or wrap
49:34around Mitchell Chad ro comm slash photo
49:38for all your graphic design needs so
49:41what are the three main takeaways that
49:43people can walk away with that they can
49:46keep in the back of their mind your
49:47advice for them as entrepreneurs and
49:49startups as people trying to get their
49:51side hustle on people who want to try to
49:54get into a corporation whatever those
49:56three main takeaways that you can
49:58provide in terms of the wisdom that
50:00you’ve been able to gain over all these
50:02years okay for entrepreneurs I would say
50:05never be afraid to ask for anything but
50:07if you’re asking for something know that
50:08you have to be able to offer something
50:10in return
50:11it’s not all about you you can add value
50:13to anybody out there doesn’t matter who
50:15they are they could be you know the CEO
50:17of the world if you want to put it that
50:20way
50:20and there’s always something that you
50:21can offer somebody in return if not now
50:23certainly later on to to is focus a
50:26focus on what it is you want to achieve
50:28and make sure that somebody has a need
50:30for it and three and three your your
50:33best salesperson and how could people
50:34stay in contact with you Nancy they can
50:37contact me through our website which is
50:42send me an email at na at Fort Bend
50:44Chaco Nancy may this has been such a
50:47pleasure
50:47Nancy may president CEO of board venture
50:50companies we want to just thank you once
50:52again and we’re really looking forward
50:54to keeping in contact with you Gary Gary
50:57more as we go forward
50:58thank you make sure I look forward to
50:59learning how I can be of service to you
51:01to take care I’ll be good
51:02okay bye-bye in closing let me ask for
51:05my listeners help first please subscribe
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51:09comm slash sign up you will get all the
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51:25just by signing up at Mitchell chadroy
51:27comm slash sign up
51:29[Music]
51:37it’s your life go back at Mitchell
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52:02Chad Road comm / sign up thank you so
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52:09until next time

The post Corporate Governance Women Directors Board Bench Entrepreneur Nancy May Show 044 was re-published on startupssmarter.com

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